tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post3102912538369137201..comments2023-12-20T17:20:22.032-05:00Comments on 99 Seats: Won't Someone Please Think About Shakespeare?!?*99http://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-41499559832908996692010-01-06T16:44:11.131-05:002010-01-06T16:44:11.131-05:00It's a good question. Let me think about it a ...It's a good question. Let me think about it a bit. I do think it's worth a new thread, 99.Jack Worthingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-66423806877123214182010-01-06T16:20:27.574-05:002010-01-06T16:20:27.574-05:00Jack & Isaac-
I think there's an interest...Jack & Isaac-<br /><br />I think there's an interesting thing to discuss there, but it might get lost in a thread this long (as we verge into Nazis in the basement territory). If you want, I can start a new thread. Feel free to e-mail me (if you have an anon e-mail, Jack) and let me know.99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-74563520292832424822010-01-06T16:14:19.458-05:002010-01-06T16:14:19.458-05:00Actually, in a way you're right to close down ...Actually, in a way you're right to close down the conversation, because engaging with the ongoing NY blogosphere circle jerk is kind of a waste of time; I can get a dog if I feel like hearing any more whining, and you'll eventually find out the hard way no matter what.Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-2270080753376378692010-01-06T16:14:14.220-05:002010-01-06T16:14:14.220-05:00Hey, I'm not even sure what I mean sometimes, ...Hey, I'm not even sure what <i>I</i> mean sometimes, Jack!<br /><br />What I think I was trying to get at was this... Jack I'm pretty sure is a playwright from some stuff he's said in other comments. Which would make him a living playwright, which would make his plays by definition new work... and I'm just wondering how his own work and (if he taught) teaching fits in to how underwhelmed by a lot of new work that's out there he feels. Does that make any sense?<br /><br />I guess part of what I 'm asking is, and I know it's hard to do this an remain anonymous (That's why I came out as Isaac Butler 7 days after starting Parabasis) is there a way to make this conversation a little more human/personal on top of talking about the system. I just want to invite Jack to get a little more here's some of what my experience has been concretely and how it informs my viewpoint on the lack of originality in new work etc.<br /><br />okay that's incoherent. i just got some bad news over the phone about an old family friend, so that's the best i can do. good luck.isaac butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07815094790605298884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-41572285895451919482010-01-06T15:11:01.813-05:002010-01-06T15:11:01.813-05:00Thanks for joining us, Thomas! Always a pleasure. ...Thanks for joining us, Thomas! Always a pleasure. See ya next time!<br /><br />Isaac, you were saying?99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-51646857698020629292010-01-06T15:05:18.942-05:002010-01-06T15:05:18.942-05:00Uh, 99 - can you even read? Those are best PRODUC...Uh, 99 - can you even <em>read?</em> Those are best PRODUCTIONS, not best PLAYS. I didn't <em>do</em> a "best play" or "best new play" list. I believe "Shooting Star" was <em>workshopped</em> prior to its Trinity outing, and the "Harbor" shown in Merrimack was I think basically the premiere production, imported from Phoenix. <br /><br />But you know what? Stop googling. Because you're so dishonest it's getting a little creepy. I understand now why you've been hiding under a rock. We'd all be better off if you went back there. But I better sign off now before I really go ad hominem on your ass.Thomas Garveynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-30076569379684407322010-01-06T14:36:03.171-05:002010-01-06T14:36:03.171-05:00I do teach sometimes, Isaac. But could you explain...I do teach sometimes, Isaac. But could you explain the rest of your question a bit more? I want to be sure I understand it. Thanks.Jack Worthingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-53825897914150699182010-01-06T13:49:56.057-05:002010-01-06T13:49:56.057-05:00Woah. Okay. I think we all know something's go...Woah. Okay. I think we all know something's gotten out of hand when a theatre critic is debasing people's work that he hasn't seen. That's generally considered out of bounds, isn't it? And I know by saying this i'm pretty much setting up a "read some things by J. Holtham and Josh Conkel and shit all over them" blog post, but i just wanted to say, I think that's a sign that maybe we should cool this shit off for a second.<br /><br />And Jack... I understand what you're saying, but it's also true that culturally, theatre is diffrent (and positioned differently) now then it was in the 1950s, for better and for worse. I don't know that one playwright could have the cultural impact of Miller anymore. And while I agree Sarah Ruhl isn't Caryl Churchill, that's also because Caryl Churchill is a once-in-a-generation talent.<br /><br />And also, when I read Pinter, I see Beckett, when I read Miller, I see O'Neill. That doesn't lessen their work as writers. <br /><br />One other question...a nd if you don't feel comfortable answering this because it might compromise your anonymity, i understand and respect that, even though we disagree a lot (unlike some people in this comments thread, i don't only disrespect desires for anonymity from people I disagree with).. do you teach? And if so, how does your understanding of the quality of new plays out there and the system producing them impact your teaching?isaac butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07815094790605298884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-22901061307048172332010-01-06T12:55:09.897-05:002010-01-06T12:55:09.897-05:00And, again, for those keeping track at home: 28 pl...And, again, for those keeping track at home: 28 plays on Thomas' list of Top 8 and Honorable Mention plays (not performance, directing or design). 4 world premieres.99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-43486200566833211572010-01-06T12:53:52.179-05:002010-01-06T12:53:52.179-05:00Well. You added two things, presumably from your n...Well. You added two things, presumably from your nods to performance and other artistic endeavors, which I didn't include. Since you didn't provide links, even to your original reviews, I did some Googling. Superhero Monologues and Truth Values were the two I found listed/described as premieres. I should have given you Sins of the Mother, so that was an oversight on my part. Little Black Dress was a bit harder to find, but I also missed that one.<br /><br />A View of the Harbor played in Phoenix in '08: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-11-06/culture/view-of-the-harbor-at-herberger-theater-is-saved-by-its-cast/<br /><br />Shooting Star played Texas in February: http://www.zachtheatre.org/stages/shooting_star.html<br /><br />You get two back. You got two wrong. I didn't call you a liar or a mediocre critic. Those are what you call ad hominem attacks.99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-15156833783845720172010-01-06T12:41:32.556-05:002010-01-06T12:41:32.556-05:00And one of these days, you'll have to learn to...And one of these days, you'll have to learn to tell the truth as well as finally admit your actual name. I looked through all my "Best of 2009" lists myself again, and came across 8, not 2, new plays, most of them world premieres, one or two revisions of pieces workshopped elsewhere. To wit:<br /><br />The Superheroine Monologues<br />A View of the Harbor<br />Sins of the Mother<br />Little Black Dress<br />The Miracle at Naples<br />The Random Caruso<br />Shooting Star<br />Truth Values<br /><br />So count yourself not just a mediocre playwright but a dishonest mediocre playwright.Thomas Garveynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-43024173647078462692010-01-06T12:34:36.737-05:002010-01-06T12:34:36.737-05:00Garvey, you can attack me or my work or my audienc...Garvey, you can attack me or my work or my audience all you'd like, but you will never be the end-all be-all of taste. <br /><br />Somewhat off the topic, you seemed to have really enjoyed "The Slutcracker." That's great! Maybe you would have liked "MilkMilkLemonade." Maybe you wouldn't have.<br /><br />Not all of us want to be the next Shakespeare. After all, there was only one Shakespeare ever. Not everybody can be the next Tony Kushner (how does he compare to Sam Shephard, by the way?) The new millennium needs new Charles Ludlams too, after all. Maybe that will be me, maybe it won't. But it's not for you alone to decide.joshcon80https://www.blogger.com/profile/13493227172042089467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-18849643891760682312010-01-06T11:48:09.763-05:002010-01-06T11:48:09.763-05:00One of these days, Thomas, you will need to learn ...One of these days, Thomas, you will need to learn to make some sort of argument without throwing in a gratuitous ad hominem attack.<br /><br />But thanks for clarifying your world: the new work you see is, by definition, weak and therefore not worthy of support or an audience. The new work that is produced is produced because of a sliding scale and curved grading that lets weak work through. If it sells out a small house, it doesn't count. If it sells well in a big house, or receives critical praise from people other than you, that's because taste has degraded. Anyone who champions the need for new work does so out of narrow self-interest and self-promotion. Any disagreement with any of this is whining.<br /><br />Good to know.99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-16396267003098616162010-01-06T11:36:55.834-05:002010-01-06T11:36:55.834-05:00I don't write about all the new work I see, 99...I don't write about all the new work I see, 99. Because it's too weak artistically. So you're quite right, almost nothing brand new that I saw made my "Best Of" list. But why would new work by inexperienced playwrights be strong, exactly? Because you think you're brilliant? Or because "MilkMilkLemonade" was funny, and sold out its 50-seat house? Just wondering. <br /><br />I don't write about the weaker new work I see because I don't feel like beating up on someone who probably just invested half their rent money in their show, and because, to be blunt, <em>I can count on the audience not being there for new work.</em> It will die on its own without intense promotion. It's that very same "intense promotion" of weak new work, like the plays of, yes, Sarah Ruhl, that I fight, because I know that somewhere out there there is a very good or even great new playwright who will need that promotion. Is it clear to you now? Or is there some other somersault you can do to keep your self-promoting panties in a bunch?Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-78982428921285976272010-01-06T00:30:55.209-05:002010-01-06T00:30:55.209-05:00I'm not even sure what you're saying there...I'm not even sure what you're saying there, Thomas. Honestly, without snark. Are you saying that "you guys" (i.e. Josh and Paul and I) are being shunned by audiences? I can't speak to Paul's recent work, but Josh's MilkMilkLemonade played to packed houses and wound up on a bunch of Top 10 lists. My audiences, when I get 'em, aren't complaining. It's such a weird dodge.<br /><br />I took a look back at your Top Ten and Honorable Mentions from this year. Of the 28 plays you mentioned, I counted exactly two NEW plays (i.e. Boston world premieres). The other plays you consider as "new" were new to Boston and many of them are already established on the regional circuit. (Let's not open the can of worms of the race/sex breakdowns, shall we?) I don't want know if you're getting a clear picture of actually new work. Or maybe none of the actually new work in Boston qualified for your lists. Which might be saying something as well. Maybe Boston would benefit from more of a focus on new work...99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-4237270710967467192010-01-05T23:47:22.888-05:002010-01-05T23:47:22.888-05:00Thanks, Jack, for saying part of what I'm tryi...Thanks, Jack, for saying part of what I'm trying to put over to these people. But the other part is an even tougher sell - they all seem to think that they're being silenced and judged, but actually, playwrights today seem to me to get more praise right out of the gate than they did in the recent past. These kids' hair would curl if they got a load of what John Simon used to dish out in the 60's and 70's. And as for Mullin's and Baker's posts about theatres that do new plays - in Boston, almost every company does more new work than anything else. I can only think of one group - the Actors' Shakespeare Project - that concentrates on classics, because, well . . . check out that name . . .<br /><br />The real trouble with you guys' situation is that in the end, the audience won't risk seeing your work. It's not the critics, or the theatre management. It's the audience itself.Thomas Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492010718011287860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-27303811722952338872010-01-05T23:30:01.631-05:002010-01-05T23:30:01.631-05:00Jack,
"I think what Garvey is trying to say...Jack, <br /><br />"I think what Garvey is trying to say is that no young writer, at the moment, is immediately changing the language and landscape like Williams, Pinter, Mamet, Churchill, etc. did when they broke through."<br /><br />Maybe we should give some the chance. We could create some room by slowing down production of dead white guys.<br /><br />And I don't think arguments of quality are verboten, but I do think to rate the great playwrights against one another on some demented bell curve and to insist that your opinion is holy writ is preposterous.joshcon80https://www.blogger.com/profile/13493227172042089467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-40567013851961015942010-01-05T22:49:04.631-05:002010-01-05T22:49:04.631-05:00If you're shooting for being the next Mamet or...If you're shooting for being the next Mamet or Churchill, your sites are too low. <br /><br />All this hand-wringing about not being sure of your context in the canon is crap. <br /><br />You think Odets fretted over such nonsense or Brecht? Get your plays done and if someone's stopping you, fight them.<br /><br />Enough is enough.Paul Mullinhttp://www.paulmullin.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-81396816968320897212010-01-05T21:47:58.552-05:002010-01-05T21:47:58.552-05:00While I feel I need to admit that I love Shakespea...While I feel I need to admit that I love Shakespeare, and fell in love with theater at a Shakespeare festival, I do agree that Shakespeare (and others) are done at the sacrifice of new plays. <br /><br />I would be intrigued at a theater that committed to the idea that for every "classical" play they did, that the very next production would be an original work. That way the season would be fifty/fifty split between classical works, that might be the very play that gets that high schooler hooked on theater, and new plays which connect audience to a new voice.Dennis Bakerhttp://www.dennisbaker.net/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-11835387303596393082010-01-05T21:00:51.894-05:002010-01-05T21:00:51.894-05:00Are we comparing Arthur Miller of The Man Who Had ...Are we comparing Arthur Miller of The Man Who Had All The Luck with Chris Shinn of Four? Pinter's The Room with Eurydice? Neither of those are perfect, of course, because the times are so different. Playwriting doesn't happen in a vacuum. My issue with the entire formulation is that it assumes that there is a direct comparison. The entire field is so different, the career paths are different, the landscape isn't the same.<br /><br />My biggest issue with the whole value judgment thing as an objective measure is that it assumes a certain kind of observer. If a person walks in off the street, can they feel the shock of the new? Or can only someone versed in Pinter/Brooks/the entire canon feel it? Which is worth more? What if the person who walks in off the street doesn't feel it and the expert does? It's a completely made-up standard. And that's okay! It's all made-up standards. But why act like there aren't?<br /><br />All of us are building on what came before. Pinter built and adapted English vaudeville traditions. Shepard used Western legends and movies images. The greats do it, the less than great do it. The question is how.99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-84270300455883238512010-01-05T19:36:16.767-05:002010-01-05T19:36:16.767-05:00I think what Garvey is trying to say is that no yo...I think what Garvey is trying to say is that no young writer, at the moment, is immediately changing the language and landscape like Williams, Pinter, Mamet, Churchill, etc. did when they broke through. And I don't think that point can be argued. It's not to say it won't happen. But when I see Ruhl, I look to Paula Vogel; when I see McCraney, I look to Peter Brook; when I see Rapp, I look to Shepard, etc. All of them might be world-changers, in the end. But right now they're not doing it. And before anyone accuses me of being a fogey, I'm a young playwright. I have my own struggles with this. I don't want to start a conversation about the anxiety of influence, blah blah; I'm pointing out that while good writing might have many attributes -- superior craft, subtlety, humanity, wit -- truly great writing always brings the shock of the new. And for that, Arthur Miller beats Christopher Shinn, or me, every time. <br /><br />And can we please quit pretending there's something evil about value judgments?Jack Worthingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-56191347477458165722010-01-05T17:51:28.097-05:002010-01-05T17:51:28.097-05:00"everyone likes Shakespeare."
Sorry, ..."everyone likes Shakespeare." <br /><br />Sorry, I have to say it: I don't really like Shakespeare. Is he an important playwright? Yes. Do I think his work should still be produced? Yes. Can I appreciate it for what it is? Mostly. Do I want to watch it? Not really. <br /><br />Okay now that I've outed myself, I'll creep back into my corner.The Green Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06848469930547055532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-6843474765265060702010-01-05T16:30:05.369-05:002010-01-05T16:30:05.369-05:00You and me both, Paulie. You and me both.You and me both, Paulie. You and me both.99https://www.blogger.com/profile/11955916620902994495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-13320147162054331582010-01-05T16:25:48.941-05:002010-01-05T16:25:48.941-05:00We get a very similar argument a lot in Seattle. ...We get a very similar argument a lot in Seattle. "We'll do local plays when local plays are good enough." It's a crap feint, completely missing the point of how plays get made and how they get better. They get made by making (or if you'll indulge me "wrighting") them, not just putting words on paper. They get better by producing them. <br /><br />Theaters who don't do new works, absolutely new and fresh at least once a season deserve all the derision we can heap on them. And based on what I'm reading here, we got a lot to heap! <br /><br />So heap away!<br /><br />(God, some days I really do miss Curt Dempster.)Paul Mullinhttp://www.paulmullin.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731242543254491491.post-43612279474821539062010-01-05T15:46:05.426-05:002010-01-05T15:46:05.426-05:00Thom, so are you saying none of the "young pl...Thom, so are you saying none of the "young playwrights writing today" are any good? All have a quality problem?<br /><br />That is a ridiculous notion.Tony Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02141675073979325374noreply@blogger.com